tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post1702391384032488908..comments2024-03-21T19:12:11.065-07:00Comments on Every Day Is Like Wednesday: I'm going to ask myself nine questions about Batman: Lovers & MadmenCalebhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-12089643129211617812008-09-23T12:42:00.000-07:002008-09-23T12:42:00.000-07:00But yes, I love Kelley Jones' art, despite how inc...<I>But yes, I love Kelley Jones' art, despite how inconsistent his character portrayals are (basically, anyone who isn't a monster or dressed like a monster looks different from panel to panel). I guess it might be because his style is so over-the-top that I tend not to think about his art as at all representational; like maybe I read Jones Batman stories as essentially un-serious</I><BR/><BR/>Oh, I know what you mean. I'm buying Gotham After Midnight because it seems so over the top that Jones's broad style doesn't bother me. On the other hand, it did bug me on the regular Batman title, where Doug Moench seemed to take his writing so seriously."O" the Humanatee!https://www.blogger.com/profile/09480155289090114457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-19917713664873278182008-09-22T16:46:00.000-07:002008-09-22T16:46:00.000-07:00But Caleb, did you REALLY like Killing Joke?I did....<I>But Caleb, did you REALLY like Killing Joke?</I><BR/><BR/>I did. I just reread it this summer, and noticed that it hadn't aged all that well (it's certainly noticeably a product of its time), but was also a little surprised at just how strong the art work was. That thing is just really well put together.<BR/><BR/>I think it's probably still the definitive and ultimate Batman vs. Joker story (as in, it makes later ones almost irrelevant beyond the pleasures of any well-done genre story) and, whether or not it completely deserves the esteem its given, I can't imagine anyone else coming along and challenging it for the top spot of the Batman/Joker story heap. <BR/><BR/><I>I have no real objection to such "alternative continuity" stories in principle, especially where Batman, a character with more than a 60-year history, is concerned.</I><BR/><BR/>I hear you. The first draft of this was a long, rambling piece that started out talking about Batman and Superman as the equivalent of oral tradition heroes, despite being corporate owned, but I was talking in circles. <BR/><BR/>I think DC kinda creates a problem for itself by at once focusing so much on continuity (i.e., spending 9 months worth of their output tellin ga story about how to think about DC continuity, etc), which unfortuantely invites people to be displeased with it. <BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Finally, Caleb, aren't you a big Kelley Jones fan? Because if you had problems with Cowan/Floyd's inconsistent rendering of Alfred, I don't know how you've been able to tolerate Jones's Batman work. Back when he was the regular Batman artist, Alfred (and other characters) fluctuated just as wildly.</I><BR/><BR/>You know, that's a really good question. I don't think I have an answer. But yes, I love Kelley Jones' art, despite how inconsistent his character portrayals are (basically, anyone who isn't a monster or dressed like a monster looks different from panel to panel). I guess it might be because his style is so over-the-top that I tend not to think about his art as at all representational; like maybe I read Jones Batman stories as essentially un-serious, whereas I was taking this graphic novel more seriously (due to the writing more than the art).<BR/><BR/> But, like I said, I don't really know. There were definitely scenes in <I>Lovers and Madmen</I> that I couldn't make heads or tails out of though; like the one I mentioned, or the the part where Jack has a gun to Lorna's head, and then it disappears with a bang.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-15403296487598674082008-09-22T14:36:00.000-07:002008-09-22T14:36:00.000-07:00A preamble: I have no real objection to such "alte...A preamble: I have no real objection to such "alternative continuity" stories in principle, especially where Batman, a character with more than a 60-year history, is concerned. Personally I think one can regard stories like this almost like myths, potentially shedding light on different aspects of the Batman "legend." (Say, wasn't there a Batman title that used that word?) There's no reason that all stories about, say, Zeus need to conform to some linear history, and I feel similarly about Batman, especially stories early in his history or lacking in any explicit time references. And I especially feel this way about Joker origins, since I'm of the opinion that there should be no definitive Joker origin. As I once wrote in a printed letter to the editor (under my real name), I prefer the Joker be treated more as a force of nature, an incarnation of chaos, than as a real human being. Which doesn't mean I mind stories that show him as such, so long as they aren't treated as canon.<BR/><BR/>All that said, I thought this particular story started out very promisingly as an interesting new spin on the Batman-Joker relationship. But then, you're right, it pretty much went out of control. I very much had the feeling that it was based on an unused screenplay; the introduction of Harley/Harleen in a rather different version than we've seen before (which I liked), and the shoehorning of Crane into Arkham Asylum, just screamed of an attempt to pack a lot of (freely adapted) comics content into a single storyline, as well as setting things up for a sequel - much as Batman Begins did by putting Crane (at Arkham Asylum!), Carmine Falcone, and Ras Al-Ghul into one film.<BR/><BR/>Finally, Caleb, aren't you a big Kelley Jones fan? Because if you had problems with Cowan/Floyd's inconsistent rendering of Alfred, I don't know how you've been able to tolerate Jones's Batman work. Back when he was the regular Batman artist, Alfred (and other characters) fluctuated just as wildly."O" the Humanatee!https://www.blogger.com/profile/09480155289090114457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-43508152137734057102008-09-22T04:38:00.000-07:002008-09-22T04:38:00.000-07:00Batman engages in Conspiracy to Commit Murder. Wo...Batman engages in Conspiracy to Commit Murder. Wow. Thats just..wow. Someone doesn't get the character at all...LurkerWithouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03540770911478925992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-52698910361198683342008-09-21T23:23:00.000-07:002008-09-21T23:23:00.000-07:00I'd STILL be into reading this unedited, 3000 ...I'd STILL be into reading this unedited, 3000 word review!<BR/><BR/>I thought the cutesy, kinda winking encounters with pre-villains Crane and Quinn were annoying, but I thought the batarang face cut was so over the top it actually worked.<BR/><BR/>I hated Killing Joke and I tried to re-read it again recently and shut the book once Joker's got Gordon in S & M gear and midgets are poking him.brandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331746353766612879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-69677670117760037342008-09-21T17:47:00.000-07:002008-09-21T17:47:00.000-07:00I had thought that the Confidentials were specific...I had thought that the <I>Confidentials</I> were specifically not canon...but i can't remember who said tghat or where, so I could be trippi'...snellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06181997862745538999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-74730875236640900052008-09-21T17:39:00.000-07:002008-09-21T17:39:00.000-07:00Carved the smile with a razor-sharp batarang? Oh,...Carved the smile with a razor-sharp batarang? Oh, god, I wish I thought you were kidding...Jacob T. Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02575549001627195334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-44834879668484626452008-09-21T16:08:00.000-07:002008-09-21T16:08:00.000-07:00On the positive side, though...um...the hardcover ...On the positive side, though...um...the hardcover is very pretty. Nice use of spot gloss on the cover.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18194711605811325421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-42966605567699708912008-09-21T15:57:00.000-07:002008-09-21T15:57:00.000-07:00Sounds like a terrible story.But Caleb, did you RE...Sounds like a terrible story.<BR/><BR/>But Caleb, did you REALLY like Killing Joke? It just didn't work for me, especially the ending. Even Alan Moore regrets having written it.Hdefinedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14402669731760470459noreply@blogger.com