tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post8891506109622831355..comments2024-03-21T19:12:11.065-07:00Comments on Every Day Is Like Wednesday: Review: A couple of very violent Teen Titans tradesCalebhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-63100851451627647702010-03-23T11:33:28.490-07:002010-03-23T11:33:28.490-07:00I like the Teen Titans and I really wanted to like...I like the Teen Titans and I really wanted to like this book, but finally I had to drop it. It's just too awful to put up with. At its best times it was just readable, but most of the time it was painful. I read it with sadness and a sense of fascinated horror at how low the franchise has fallen... No coherent plot... No character development... A stream of characters leaving through one door of titan tower while another stream enters through another one... Filled with characters I neither know nor care about... Boring and pointless tie-ins and crossovers... <br /><br />It's a real mess, unreadable even for devoted fans.<br /><br />Really, someone at DC should read twenty issues in a row and feel ashamed at what they are doing. It's just not working at all. They need to separate this one a bit from day to day DCU continuity and allow a stable character rooster, preferably with some likable characters.Farseerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02596454696888505022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-13576402421685078062010-03-17T17:54:44.013-07:002010-03-17T17:54:44.013-07:00I'm still confused by the "sending kids o...I'm still confused by the "sending kids off to war" bit. I'd missed the part where children were taken out of their homes, given a helmet and sent off to Afghanistan.<br /><br />Of course, saying "this is ridiculous coming from a nation that allows people who are old enough to have sex the opportunity to get a job working for the army in the full knowledge that they might get sent of to a war zone" isn't quite as catchy.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-69740320584033754782010-03-16T06:47:12.150-07:002010-03-16T06:47:12.150-07:00Lionel,
DC also has a mature reader's line, ...Lionel, <br /><br />DC also has a mature reader's line, and this title isn't part of it...it's in it's all-ages DC line. <br /><br />Not sure what to make of the rest of your post. <i>I</i> don't send kids off to war, imprison them or execute them. (And not that this has anything to do with a <i>Teen Titans</i> comic, but if it were up to me we wouldn't be fighting one of our current wars at all or executing <i>any</i> criminals).Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-9641034146159829652010-03-15T09:51:32.375-07:002010-03-15T09:51:32.375-07:00I agree with John. Caleb, your boo-boo bitching is...I agree with John. Caleb, your boo-boo bitching is just tiresome, and besides, DC has a kid's line, so I think that you should just chill out.<br /><br />And John is right again; this whiny complaining about 'OMG! Kids are looking at this!' is a load of hypocrisy coming from a nation (and a populace) that send young kids off to war and also executes them-not to mention also sends them to jail for life, with adults (a story point of a DC comics title whose name escapes me, for the moment.)Lionel Braithwaitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03024473793409118944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-54002586238032552982010-02-26T16:58:02.182-08:002010-02-26T16:58:02.182-08:00Wow, there are a lot of comments here, and some go...Wow, there are a lot of comments here, and some good discussion...and I've only had to delete one person's comments so far! Awesome. <br /><br /><i>Comic books aren't movies, and the less labels the better. Labels inevitably lead to editorial and corporate censorship.</i><br /><br />Well, like I said, I don't think levels of ratings like Marvel uses (or the movies use) are the best way to go, but there's no reason they can't put a tiny "For Mature Readers" stamp on the more violent DCU books like they do Vertigo books. <br /><br />And editorial or publish-itorial censorship is self-censorship, and not the bad thing that, say, government censorship is. These comics could have benefited from an editor suggesting that the images be a little more evocative than exploitive, or suggesting that maybe having Wonder Dog devour two kids just to motivate Wonder Girl to switch from her sixth to her seventh costume isn't the best constructed narrative arc. <br /><br /><i>For me I have a serious issue with DC using the same characters in kids-teens and adult's products. A normal person might assume the smiling friendly Batman of the Brave and Bold cartoon is the same character as the brooding violent on in say the Joker OGN. And they're not.</i><br /><br />I remember reading a post by someone—Noah Berlatsky, maybe?—about his son being frightened and having a bad dream after encountering Vampire Batman in a comics store, and saying there's no vampire version of Thomas The Tank Engine.<br /><br />I think the flexibility of some of DC's characters—like, the fact that Batman can be the center of <i>The Dark Knight</i>, which I liked, and <i>The Brave and the Bold</i> cartoon, which I love—is a great thing about some of those characters, and the company would be foolish not to embrace that aspect.<br /><br />On the other hand, it seems bizarre to me that Batman can't team up with Swamp Think or John Constantine, but <i>Teen Titans</i> can have scenes of spines being yanked out or Sue Dibny could get raped on the JLA meeting table.<br /><br />There's a pretty big difference between a dark, violent, psychologialy disturbing version of Batman for the big screen that makes gazillions of dollars, and a very violent issue of <i>Teen Titans</i> that like 30,000 people read. The violence doesn't sell any more, and it rarely adds anything to the stories, so why bother? <br /><br /><br /><i>You mean the same people who watch CSI and Criminal Minds and Saw and don't take comics seriously?</i><br /><br />I've never seen CSI or heard of Criminal Minds—Law & Order and Castle are my only police procedural shows—but I'd be awfully surprised to find out that an episode of CSI showed two people getting ripped in half in the space of a few seconds.<br /><br />Saw is a more fair comparison, but then, the Saw movies are rated R and you're supposed to be at least 17 to be able to see 'em, whereas <i>Teen Titans</i> is all-ages. Saw is also a horror/gore movie franchise, whereas <i>Teen Titans</i> is a superhero series about teenage superheroes...in other words, one is <i>supposed</i> to be horrifying and gory, the fact that the other one is should come as a surprise, shouldn't it?Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-67498053962376389922010-02-26T13:24:43.704-08:002010-02-26T13:24:43.704-08:00Thomas, I've always said Didio's DCU is li...Thomas, I've always said Didio's DCU is like THE SUPERFRIENDS as directed by Quentin Tarentino minus the quality.Mr Saturday Morninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06977251887435746427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-74466781130885560622010-02-26T05:08:39.356-08:002010-02-26T05:08:39.356-08:00First off, J. Caleb, thank you so much for this ar...First off, J. Caleb, thank you so much for this article. You managed to give voice to everything that makes me feel uncomfortable about hanging out in the present DCU Under DiDio.<br /><br />And collectededitions, the thing I actually appreciated about the Johns run (I may not like Johns much as a writer, but he <i>has</i> written such good things as <i>Titans</i> and <i>JSA</i>) is that even though things like Kid Flash getting knee-capped happened, they happened for a <i>purpose</i>. The stuff that goes on in McKeever's run are there just for the shock value. The DiDio DCU has become a junior high schooler's concept of 'adult, sophisticated fare'--an over-the-top riot of blood, cursing and inapproriate sexual content that is, at its core, the same stories you read before you entered junior high school.<br /><br />THat's why The New DCU is The Silver Age with more anal rape, swearing and forcible dismemberment....Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03404896748431996295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-65720893180489575492010-02-25T09:14:09.506-08:002010-02-25T09:14:09.506-08:00"Although the normal person had no problem wi..."Although the normal person had no problem with the violence in the Batman films, especially The Dark Knight."<br /><br />You mean the films packaged as grown-up pieces of work, right? Compare the DVD cover of The Dark Knight with the cover of these issues, and tell me that they are aimed at the same people.<br /><br />Also, your posts contain lots of sentences that just don't make sense. "We send teenagers off to kill other teenagers on a regular basis, and celebrate."<br /><br />1/ A large portion of the country doesn't celebrate that.<br />2/ America sends out SOLDIERS to fight other SOLDIERS. Or terrorists. Or, well, that's a whole different argument. I'm fairly certain though that their advertising policy isn't "join up and kill teenagers".<br />3/ I'm not buying your use of the word "regular" there. And out of all the teenagers in the US, how many are in the armed forces? (Likewise for your later comment, how many teenagers are actually given the death sentence every year?)<br /><br />"I think it's a good thing that teens can understand and handle violence."<br /><br />I'd like to know a sitatuion where "handling" the Sentry ripping a guy in half is at all relevent to what the average teenager will encounter during his day.LiamKavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01996095233681105682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-64991347210325860802010-02-25T01:06:30.055-08:002010-02-25T01:06:30.055-08:00This was a very, very good reviewThis was a very, very good reviewVanjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02796186915343967167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-26554072529519883112010-02-25T00:49:00.832-08:002010-02-25T00:49:00.832-08:00Nothing that's been done in the name of the &#...Nothing that's been done in the name of the 'Titans' has been worth anything since the early 80s. Whether they should go 'retro' or stay contemporary to improve story quality or issue sales has been bantered around to death. Basically, no one has a clue what to do with them. Gratuitous violence isn't likely to be the best step forward.<br /><br />Frankly, I'll just collect the Wolfman/Perez or Nick Cardy memories, everyone. <br /><br />David B.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-22648210524029786402010-02-24T20:09:06.988-08:002010-02-24T20:09:06.988-08:00"You are basically saying that we should allo..."You are basically saying that we should allow kids to harm themselves and other people, just because there are worse things that could happen to them."<br /><br />No, I'm saying we should allow teens to read comics that teens can handle and not try to hide it from them just because we personally don't like it.<br /><br />"But we also shouldn't promote violence to children or needlessly encourage them to view violent images."<br /><br />Who is talking about promoting violence to children or encouraging them to view violent images? I was talking about teenagers and not trying to block them from seeing images they can handle.<br /><br />"A normal person might assume the smiling friendly Batman of the Brave and Bold cartoon is the same character as the brooding violent on in say the Joker OGN."<br /><br />These hypothetical normal people should learn how to look at books before they buy them.<br /><br />Although the normal person had no problem with the violence in the Batman films, especially The Dark Knight.<br /><br />"John, try showing that second pic (the one where someone's spine is being ripped out?!) to a casual acquaintance in your office or school or wherever and see if they consider it tame."<br /><br />You mean the same people who watch CSI and Criminal Minds and Saw and don't take comics seriously? I doubt the words "torture porn" would come out of their mouth if they read the comic. You really need to take a step back and realize not everyone is as passionate about this as you are.John Hyperionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509649216445180021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-65357217245401520232010-02-24T11:51:53.110-08:002010-02-24T11:51:53.110-08:00John, try showing that second pic (the one where s...John, try showing that second pic (the one where someone's spine is being ripped out?!) to a casual acquaintance in your office or school or wherever and see if they consider it tame. <br /><br />Would you even be comfortable showing it to a casual acquaintance? Honestly?Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07445518270917523917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-56492086457353197862010-02-24T10:23:54.205-08:002010-02-24T10:23:54.205-08:00For me I have a serious issue with DC using the sa...For me I have a serious issue with DC using the same characters in kids-teens and adult's products. A normal person might assume the smiling friendly Batman of the Brave and Bold cartoon is the same character as the brooding violent on in say the Joker OGN. And they're not. <br /><br />Disney keeps their characters for kids, there's no Mickey X-treme! where he pulls out spines. <br /><br />I understand that comics, the medium, has grown up but DC should create new character to populate mature stories, or drop the kid-friendly stuff if they're going to put torture and rape in Batman books.Kid Kyotohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06831945346163986586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-51597623796985801712010-02-24T10:11:39.810-08:002010-02-24T10:11:39.810-08:00John, I disagree that "it's absurd to hav...John, I disagree that "it's absurd to have this discussion about teens in a country that will sentence teens to death."<br /><br />You are basically saying that we should allow kids to harm themselves and other people, just because there are worse things that could happen to them.<br /><br />It's a terrible thing that this country sentences teenagers to death. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss and try to deal with smaller problems.<br /><br />You also wrote "I think it's a good thing that teens can understand and handle violence. I think it's a bad thing to pretend otherwise."<br /><br />Sure, violence is a part of life, and maybe we shouldn't try to hide that fact from teenagers and children. But we also shouldn't promote violence to children or needlessly encourage them to view violent images.Sandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09672666055136757425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-10540643926277438682010-02-24T08:29:42.948-08:002010-02-24T08:29:42.948-08:00I agree, Caleb -- and look at the cover image to t...I agree, Caleb -- and look at the cover image to the book! It looks like it's meant for 10-year-olds and younger kids. One goal of putting this stuff in the adult section of the library is to avoid dealing with "adult busybodies," as you put it. Those are the idiots who would burn the books if they could, and prevent anyone from seeing them.<br /><br />Another goal should be to make it clear to parents that these books are not meant for children. <br /><br />Lastly, another goal really should be to decrease the chances that young kids will see this stuff -- it simply is not good for kids to be exposed to violent images. I hate to sound like a Wertham-supporter, but psychologists have shown that exposure to violence at a young age leads kids to engage in violent behavior when they are older. Don't censor the books or burn them, just put them in the area of the library where little kids are less likely to see them.Sandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09672666055136757425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-42688900575734840772010-02-24T08:23:19.195-08:002010-02-24T08:23:19.195-08:00"I don't necessarily thing Marvel's l..."I don't necessarily thing Marvel's labeling is the best way to go either (it's pretty arbitrary, really), but I wish DC would either stamp "For Mature Readers" on their books that contain content that would necessitate an R, NC-17 or lack of rating (to avoid an NC-17) in a film, or just not include that content."<br /><br />Comic books aren't movies, and the less labels the better. Labels inevitably lead to editorial and corporate censorship.<br /><br />"It's not really the teenagers I think would mind all the torture and threat of sexual violence though, it's their parents or the sorts of adult busybodies who go through library shelves looking for inappropriate material, you know? "<br /><br />SPOILER ALERT: Parents will never stop complaining no matter how carefully something is rated see: Movies, Video Games, TV Shows.John Hyperionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509649216445180021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-80088947108778312222010-02-24T08:10:59.131-08:002010-02-24T08:10:59.131-08:00All of this well said. Now, Geoff Johns' firs...All of this well said. Now, Geoff Johns' first issues on Titans were "icky," too, from Kid Flash getting shot in the knee (graphic depiction of the wound) to Ravager stabbing herself in the eye. <br /><br />But what I noticed was that Johns' Teen Titans issues were just more <i>fun</i>; the team liked and cared for one another, got along, and made the reader like them, too. I don't mind a slow build where a team gets to know one another, but McKeever's Titans don't much seem to like one another, and bicker so much that I don't much like them, either (I've all but dropped the book). Eddy Barrows' art has appealed to me with certain inkers, but here it's just too dark, lending itself to that sense of dreariness overall.<br /><br />Again, I think you summed it all up well.collectededitionshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698269790653953645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-71422955024032631572010-02-24T08:08:45.702-08:002010-02-24T08:08:45.702-08:00"Teens can certainly handle such gratuitous v..."Teens can certainly handle such gratuitous violence. But that doesn't mean they want it. Most people don't regardless of age-group, teens included.<br /><br />The real point is, this isn't for teens. Its for a niche market emotionally stunted fanboys who get off on torture porn"<br /><br />This is a really poor comment. You're assigning your personal dislike of violence to "most people" then insulting anyone who disagrees.<br /><br />It comes off even more as you projecting your personal issues when you call a relatively tame comic like Teen Titans "torture porn." I think you've lost touch with "most people" there.<br /><br />"Are you saying that is a good thing?"<br /><br />I think it's a good thing that teens can understand and handle violence. I think it's a bad thing to pretend otherwise. I think it's a bad thing when you start shuffling books around for content, especially from teens who can certainly handle the content.<br /><br />I think it's absurd to have this discussion about teens in a country that will sentence teens to death.John Hyperionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509649216445180021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-9617387038088649712010-02-24T08:04:44.871-08:002010-02-24T08:04:44.871-08:00Re: The violence appropriate-ness
I haven't m...Re: The violence appropriate-ness<br /><br />I haven't mentioned this in a while, but what I find kind of galling about it in DC comics is that all DCU comics look/are assumed to be all-ages. There's no indication that they're meant for a certain age group...based on the covers, Johnny DC and DCU books are for the same audience, while Vertigo says "For Mature Readers."<br /><br />I don't necessarily thing Marvel's labeling is the best way to go either (it's pretty arbitrary, really), but I wish DC would either stamp "For Mature Readers" on their books that contain content that would necessitate an R, NC-17 or lack of rating (to avoid an NC-17) in a film, or just not include that content.<br /><br />The publisher seems to want it both ways, and while there's apparently little danger of teenagers reading a lot of their product, they seem to be in a perpetual state of daring someone to object.<br /><br />It's not really the teenagers I think would mind all the torture and threat of sexual violence though, it's their parents or the sorts of adult busybodies who go through library shelves looking for inappropriate material, you know? <br /><br />(At my time in the library business, I've never heard a kid complain about anything, but I have heard parents, grandparents and random adults complain about the content in comics...usually homosexual content or nudity).Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-47587401025786307522010-02-24T07:59:18.688-08:002010-02-24T07:59:18.688-08:00Anonymous Troll Calling Himself "Hdefined&quo...Anonymous Troll Calling Himself "Hdefined" Whose Comments I Had To Delete AGAIN This Week,<br /><br />I'm not going through this with you again. Yes, I sometimes make assumptions about the creative process when writing about a comics work. I don't much care if that offends your sensibilities, as I don't much care about you and whether you read me or like me or not (That's not true; I guess I care enough to wish you'd just go away once and for all). <br /><br />I'm surprised you're old enough to be using the Internet unsupervised, but have yet to realize it's a valid aspect of criticism to do so--no one interviews creators about their process before criticizing it, because we criticize the work, not the process.<br /><br />If I don't say "it seems" or "it appears" before every assumption, then it is implied, and if you can read, you know that, so you're basically just being an argumentative ass. Which you can do on your own blog (they're free!), but I wish you'd quit using my comments section as your blog.Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01391759187396994380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-69935075023510021332010-02-24T07:24:45.819-08:002010-02-24T07:24:45.819-08:00John, I'm not sure that your reasoning holds u...John, I'm not sure that your reasoning holds up here. You said "Teenagers can handle violence, and American teens are pretty used to it. We send teenagers off to kill other teenagers on a regular basis, and celebrate." Are you saying that is a good thing? I can't imagine that you are. But if you agree that American teens being used to violence and sending "teenagers off to kill other teenagers on a regular basis, and celebrate" is a bad thing, why should we encourage teenagers to read violent books? Why put a book filled with violent images in the "youth" section of a library? Even if teens can "handle" these images, that does not mean that we should promote them as teen-appropriate. Moreover, I would guess that teenagers are not the only ones who will browse through these books -- younger kids will look there too. I'm not saying remove these books from the library altogether, just don't put them in the youth section. We should make it easier for parents to decide whether they want to let their kids see these images.Sandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09672666055136757425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-50675607594139755022010-02-24T07:00:51.031-08:002010-02-24T07:00:51.031-08:00Teens can certainly handle such gratuitous violenc...Teens can certainly handle such gratuitous violence. But that doesn't mean they want it. Most people don't regardless of age-group, teens included.<br /><br />The real point is, this isn't for teens. Its for a niche market emotionally stunted fanboys who get off on torture porn.<br /><br />This isn't bad because it's violent. It's bad because there's nothing teen readers can relate to.Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07445518270917523917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-58862212227065894182010-02-24T06:14:51.146-08:002010-02-24T06:14:51.146-08:00I didn't read anything in this post that sugge...I didn't read anything in this post that suggests this would be inappropriate for a teenager. Teenagers can handle violence, and American teens are pretty used to it. We send teenagers off to kill other teenagers on a regular basis, and celebrate. I'm not worried about them seeing cartoonish violence in a comic book.John Hyperionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04509649216445180021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-86463185466446904662010-02-24T05:09:49.474-08:002010-02-24T05:09:49.474-08:00It probably would be a good idea to suggest to the...It probably would be a good idea to suggest to the librarians that they shelve these books with the adult books. Children really shouldn't be encouraged to read them.Sandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09672666055136757425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28855039.post-54247423149325791512010-02-23T22:13:28.136-08:002010-02-23T22:13:28.136-08:00These issues were a total mess. I read them all in...These issues were a total mess. I read them all in one sitting and I still had to reference back and forth to figure some of them out. <br /><br />And I really don't think it was McKeever's fault. He seemed terribly uncomfortable with what he was doing and I would assume it directly connects with him leaving the main story. <br /><br />Hopefully, he will be able to get some work outside of backup stories in the near future.Nicholas Ahlhelmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05651416360488414615noreply@blogger.com